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Indigenous shield arts?


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#1 Matawguro

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 01:25 PM

One thing that puzzles me is that I haven't seen any local examples of how shields such as the tameng and kalasag are used. Has anyone seen any?
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#2 Diego_Vega

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 03:01 AM

The curator at the Ayala Museum in Vigan told me how the Igorot shields (is this the kalasag?) they had on display had specific usages for the parts that stuck out on top and at the bottom. It seems that the bottom 3 parts could be used to trip up an opponent, while the top two parts are used to hold them down by the neck.  I agree its strange that you don't hear more about shield usage, as most European/Asian accounts credit having a shield with increasing a fighting man's efficiency and survival chances by at least double.
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#3 Tony Torre

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 07:46 PM

I believe Dan Inosanto shows some shield work in his first tape series.  He relates it to double stick.

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#4 sangot

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 09:19 PM

QUOTE (Tony Torre @ Jun 30 2007, 04:46 AM)
I believe Dan Inosanto shows some shield work in his first tape series.  He relates it to double stick.

Hope This Helps,
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#5 Matawguro

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 06:46 AM

What type of shield did he use?
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#6 RedBagani

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 06:56 AM

QUOTE (Diego_Vega @ Jun 24 2007, 03:01 AM)
...its strange that you don't hear more about shield usage, as most European/Asian accounts credit having a shield with increasing a fighting man's efficiency and survival chances by at least double.

Bringing a shield to a PE class is a hassle. Trying to commute with the dang thing is a pain in the ***. Have you tried to fit yourself & a shield into a tricycle or jeep?

As society changes, so does martial arts. Soon, our kids won't know what a war shield is. All they know will be those minted "shield', with or without wings.  blink.gif
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#7 torqui

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 07:23 AM

Except for the Japanese, I think most other cultures used shields for warfare. I think the shield fell into disuse when firearms became the norm in warfare and bladed weapons were relegated to sidearms and weapons of civilian life (as red said, shields are cumbersome for civilian life). The Europeans used shields but when firearms came into use they dropped the shield. This is when the rapier and small sword came into use as civilian weapons while the sabre was retained as a sidearm in cavalries.

#8 Hierophant

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 07:26 AM

How was the long precolonial Filipino shield (of the design we see in paintings and drawings of Lapu-Lapu and the like) wielded? Was it worn on one's forearm horizontally (to cover the length of the entire arm), or was it a vertical thing?
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#9 Matawguro

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 07:58 AM

QUOTE (RedBagani @ Jun 30 2007, 02:56 PM)
Bringing a shield to a PE class is a hassle. Trying to commute with the dang thing is a pain in the ***. Have you tried to fit yourself & a shield into a tricycle or jeep?

Just use a trash can or water bin lid. That's what we used to do as kids pretending to be Captain America.  smile.gif

QUOTE (RedBagani @ Jun 30 2007, 02:56 PM)
As society changes, so does martial arts. Soon, our kids won't know what a war shield is. All they know will be those minted "shield', with or without wings.  blink.gif

I fear the same is happening with sticks. Soon most FMA systems will focus on knives instead of sticks.

I don't discount shield arts dying off due to obsolescence. However, spears are likewise obsolete yet we still have Budjak Silat.

QUOTE (torqui @ Jun 30 2007, 03:23 PM)
I think the shield fell into disuse when firearms became the norm in warfare and bladed weapons were relegated to sidearms and weapons of civilian life (as red said, shields are cumbersome for civilian life).

Shiels seem to be useful for riot policemen.  tongue.gif

QUOTE (Hierophant @ Jun 30 2007, 03:26 PM)
How was the long precolonial Filipino shield (of the design we see in paintings and drawings of Lapu-Lapu and the like) wielded? Was it worn on one's forearm horizontally (to cover the length of the entire arm), or was it a vertical thing?

Based on war dances and shields sold at tourist shops, I'm guessing it was held vertically. Just a guess, mind you.
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#10 kabayo

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 08:28 AM

training in shield will reveal to you lots of strategies that would otherwise be unavailable when you train w/o a shield. i wasnt trained in one but some of the techniques were passed to me orally(since i cant let the oldman demo it,he is just TOO OLD...but i got the idea)...

the shield can still be relevant in modern society. a backpack can act as one...

true,the shield's significance has diminished with the introduction of modern firearms. but beleive it or not...a good chinese rattan shield(like the one used by riot police during marcos' days) CAN deflect a 22cal rifle's bullets(depending on the rifle,i guess) when properly constructed and properly lacquered. these things are very heavy...there are lots of stuff that you can do with the rattan shield.  im not going to go into it since this is an FMA topic and i think i de-railed it already somewhat sad.gif hehehe      oooops...

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#11 kabayo

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 08:34 AM

uhm...i would like to make an educated guess...

the native shields i see have slots on the top...chinese crossbow archers have 1 slot at the top,the local shields have 2. now,the crossbow archers use them as "peep holes" to shoot their bolts from. i guess that the early flips wouldve used it the same way since its common sense anyways...its can also be used like a "tiririt" for spears.

im starting to get curious...do our local shield designs(like what datu puti has) also appear althrough out the indo-malayan world or is it really just in these islands?

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#12 torqui

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (kabayo @ Jun 30 2007, 04:34 PM)
i guess that the early flips wouldve used it the same way since its common sense anyways...its can also be used like a "tiririt" for spears.


That seems like a reasonable guess. Aside from using them as one's "tiririt" (that wooden guide used in billiards), the slots on top and bottom of the shield (or any scalloping on the edges) can also be used to:

Deflect/guide an attack upwards or downwards (via the "tiririt" principle)

Pin a weapon or limb against the ground to immobilize for a killing blow or to break the weapon or limb.

Trap a weapon or limb in one of those slots (if the slots are deep enough) by twisting the shield to immobilize, disarm or break a weapon or limb (similar to weapon trapping techniques employed with a sai/trident/pitchfork).

#13 Karl

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 05:46 PM

Hi

here some pics of shields used in the north of the PH and some weapons.

regards
Karl

Attached Files


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#14 kabayo

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 01:42 AM

torqui: yup...i guess nobody wouldve put it there for nothing anyways hehehe

hello karl...nice shield photo's

what about the impi's shield? i suppose that its use is somewhat similar to native shields in some manner?

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#15 Raymund Suba

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 01:04 PM

QUOTE (Hierophant @ Jun 30 2007, 03:26 PM)
How was the long precolonial Filipino shield (of the design we see in paintings and drawings of Lapu-Lapu and the like) wielded? Was it worn on one's forearm horizontally (to cover the length of the entire arm), or was it a vertical thing?


A little OT:
I just realized a while back how weird the drawing of Lapu-lapu was when I started doing some research on this. It seems that the Predominant shield in the Mindanao was a round shield strapped to the fore arm (at least in later period examples). And the Moro tower shield was mostly a solid elongated diamond (as seen in war dances).

While the tower-shield with the looping outline was more popular with the mountain provinces. Now I don't know what was popular in Cebu at the time, but I would posit that it is more likely for the Peoples of Mindanao influenced Cebuano arms and armor than  the peoples from the mountain provinces of Luzon.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic:
I did see war dances a while back where the shield was held at a vertical handle near the middle of the shield. If I  interpreted the war dance correctly, they  were used to rush at the other guy to knock him off balance then finish  the other guy off with your spear or sword.
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#16 JohnJ

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 02:55 PM

I recall hearing some stories of shield use:

1) Ram and off-balancing your opponent
2) Large ones like in pic#4 (that looks loike a coffin) can be used to hack  
    down on the feet of your opponent.
3) 3-prongs were also used to lay the spear on. While you are protected you can slide the spear like a pool cue. And ram against the neck of your opponent.
3) Round ones much like you see in movies like Troy. Slam the edge into opponents neck in a punch like motion

I've mentioned this before but GM Estalilla's Kabaroan is supposed to be shield and spear methods. I amsure he can provide valuable insight or at the very least one of his students.

#17 torqui

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Raymund Suba @ Jul 2 2007, 09:04 PM)
A little OT:
I just realized a while back how weird the drawing of Lapu-lapu was when I started doing some research on this. It seems that the Predominant shield in the Mindanao was a round shield strapped to the fore arm (at least in later period examples). And the Moro tower shield was mostly a solid elongated diamond (as seen in war dances).

While the tower-shield with the looping outline was more popular with the mountain provinces. Now I don't know what was popular in Cebu at the time, but I would posit that it is more likely for the Peoples of Mindanao influenced Cebuano arms and armor than  the peoples from the mountain provinces of Luzon.


Hmmm.... I googled a bit and you may be right.

Except for this Bagobo shield, other shields in the South seem to be round. It could be theorized that muslims in the South used round shields while non-muslims in the South, like the Bagobo, use shields similar to other non-muslim tribes in the archipelago.

Here are pics of the Bagobo shield:








Here are pics of the Moro shield:




#18 Raymund Suba

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 03:47 PM

QUOTE (torqui @ Jun 30 2007, 03:23 PM)
Except for the Japanese, I think most other cultures used shields for warfare. I think the shield fell into disuse when firearms became the norm in warfare and bladed weapons were relegated to sidearms and weapons of civilian life (as red said, shields are cumbersome for civilian life). The Europeans used shields but when firearms came into use they dropped the shield. This is when the rapier and small sword came into use as civilian weapons while the sabre was retained as a sidearm in cavalries.


Actually, a whole slew of armies never used shields. Shooting from the hip: The Swiss pikemen of the 16th century didn't use them, and the Macedonian Phalanx didn't bother with them either. The Mongols didn't for the bulk of their army, nor the Han dynasty in China who used unshielded pikemen.

It was a cost/benefit analysis of greater weapon reach/strength vs protection.
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#19 kabayo

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 12:16 AM

the chinese army emphasis swiftness and most are mounted smile.gif so shields arent as necesary as they were if theyre infantry smile.gif also...a mounted chinese warrior is also expected to shoot arrows on horseback. the chinese soldiers that use shields were crossbowmen and the archer's sidekick(lack of a better term). and also the "tiger brigade"...chinese shock troops who have big heavy rattan shields and armed w a sabre used for destroying formations and storming castles...as the shield design can be used beyond the obvious smile.gif

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#20 bro

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:49 AM

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#21 FUS

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 04:44 AM

[quote=torqui,Jul 2 2007, 06:45 PM]
[quote=Raymund Suba,Jul 2 2007, 09:04 PM]A little OT:


Eexcept for this Bagobo shield, other shields in the South seem to be round. It could be theorized that muslims in the South used round shields whle non-muslims in the South, like the Bagobo, use shileds similar to other non-muslim tribes in the archipelago.







Here are pics of the Moro shield:



[/quote]

Those are Sulu sheilds, Tausug, Sama, ect.

Maguindanao, Maranao are different.

#22 dan

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 05:51 PM

QUOTE (kabayo @ Jul 2 2007, 05:16 PM)
the chinese army emphasis swiftness and most are mounted smile.gif so shields arent as necesary as they were if theyre infantry smile.gif also...a mounted chinese warrior is also expected to shoot arrows on horseback. the chinese soldiers that use shields were crossbowmen and the archer's sidekick(lack of a better term). and also the "tiger brigade"...chinese shock troops who have big heavy rattan shields and armed w a sabre used for destroying formations and storming castles...as the shield design can be used beyond the obvious smile.gif


Shields is a very important part of ancient Chinese army as it is in most armies. The fighting formation would consist of the infantry equip with shields, the infantry usually carry the rectangular shields and spears or helbred while the cavalry the round shield.

The rectangular shield when cluster together form a perfect wall.

The shield infantry will form a defensive wall and behind them are pikemen, the pikemen are to stop any cavalry charge after that the crossbowmen and archers will rain arrows at the attacking army while behind the protection of a shield wall. usually the crossbowmen will fire first then the archers. This is so because it takes longer to reload a crossbow then it is a bow and arrow but the crossbow can inflict more serious damage like penetrating armours and sometimes light shields. So basically the archers are to give the crossbowmen time to reload.

The crossbow was first used in China and it became very effective in stopping war chariots and cavalries, the crossbow can penetrate thick armours. But those crossbowmen need to be protected by infantry shield bearers or else they'll get run over by the faster cavalry.

Cavalry usually were used for flanking purposes it was the Mongols who introduced an all cavalry army for mobility purposes. Also during the Mongol era gunpowder was already being use this gunpowder drastically reduce the effctiveness of archers, crossbowmen and shield wall formation.

Ancient Egpyt, Syria, Greece, Persia, Rome, Carthage even in Africa the Zulus uses the shield as part of their military arsenel.

Off course the usage of the shield became obsolete with the invention of firearms.

Now shields are used in crowd control, their concept and principle are taken from ancient figting techniques of ancient armies.
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#23 shrapnel

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 01:42 AM

From my understanding, the shield was the primary symbol of the warrior, even more than the spear or sword.  That's why in Sparta there was a saying "Come back with your shield or on it", implying the importance of the shield in the Spartan arsenal.
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#24 kabayo

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 01:49 AM

dan, chinese cavalry werent equipped with any round shields...how would anybody shoot an arrow in horseback with a heavy shield? some soldiers may prefer it but i never saw any illustration where in a mounted far eastern warrior who has any shield...the persians have them but theyre persians...
besides,how would anybody weild a polearm while one horseback when he has to think about having a shield? the dexterity wouldve been lost.

edit: shrapnel- yes...shield shapes and colour can mean life or death for the bearer...you wear the wrong colours or shape and your dead hehehe just try wear blue and sit in the bleacher where the guys wearing green are...lagot ka sa mga archers hehehehe and vice versa...may nagulpi na sa ganyan...beda-lasalle ata hehehe

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#25 Raymund Suba

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 05:21 AM

Guys lets stay on topic and focus on Philippine examples of shield work.

FUS,

Can you tell us more of the differences between the shields of these groups? Is it with the material, the shape, the grip, or something I haven't mentioned?
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