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Filipino Name Spelling for Nunchaku


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#1 ryangruhn

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 06:41 PM

Hey All,
Does anyone know the correct spelling for Tabac Tuyik / Lalesie Tuyik ; the term for nunchak in the FMA’s?


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#2 bayani

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:35 AM

Tabak tuyok? dry.gif  never hreard that one is a Pinoy weapon except in the 70's  or the chako biggrin.gif from Bruce Lee ( taught by Dan Inosanto? )  other wise I don't think it's ever been part of FMA..anyone? Come to think of it, who taught Dan Inosanto the use of the chucks?

#3 ryangruhn

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 12:43 AM

In short,
  Yes I am referring to Guro I. and his reference to the chaks.  I have heard other places that they did exist in the FMA’s before to the majapait empire.  I don’t however have any proof to back up that claim.  Another quick question, what other exotic weapons spawned out of the FMA's that everyone knows of?  Yo-yo, ???

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#4 ryangruhn

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 12:51 AM

Found this from the old forum:

http://fma.rtrinidad.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB...;num=1099259942

#5 nosyac

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 04:49 AM

"Tabak" (tagalog) would be translated to sword in english word right?

And "Toyok" (cebuano) means turning in full circle in english...

Sorry if my translation is way off the chart if indeed they are wrong... laugh.gif

#6 Raymund Andrea

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 06:19 AM

I doubt that nunchakus were part of the FMA. They came from the Chinese or Japanese via Kungfu or Karate. I doubt that there's any nunchaku in FMA other than thru direct recent importation from CMA and JMA in the 1960s and 1970s.

#7 torqui

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 08:10 AM

There is a traditional Okinawan weapon called the "Nitanbo" (meaning "two short sticks"). A pair of 18" sticks is held in each hand and is allegedly used in a fashion similar to FMA. It is theorized that this weapon and its usage came to Okinawa from the Philippines. Go to this site to see:

Karate & Kobudo Resource

This implies that there was cultural exchange between Okinawa and the Philippines long before WWII. Although I highly doubt this, if this is true, then it would be reasonable to presume that the flow of technical ideas went both ways and leaves room for entertaining the idea that the nunchaku could've been adopted as a weapon in FMA before the Japanese came over in WWII.

Following this theory, it would be a reasonable assumption that the use of nunchaku in FMA would, at least, be present in some styles that come from coastal areas that were known to receive foreign traders like the Chinese, Japanese, Indians and Arabs and also those that actually sailed to foreign destinations to bring local goods for trade. Those places are probably a good place to start research in FMA nunchaku usage.

Ever since an ancient Keris (Kris) was dug-up in an ancient temple in Okinawa, the idea that Malay (including Filipino) culture and martial arts could've influenced and could've been influenced by Okinawan culture and martial arts is becoming more feasible. Go to this site to see:

Keris in Okinawa

But I have yet to find a Philippine-based FMA style that has ever heard of the tabak-toyok or "chako" and acknowledges it as a traditional FMA weapon predating the Spanish conquest or at least prior to the Japanese occupation of these islands.

Aside from Dan Inosanto's vague presentation of the "tabak-toyok" (nunchaku) in his book, the best lead I have sofar is Master Sioc Glaraga's account of a certain George (Jorge?) Tabancora (Tabangkura?) from Negros Occidental who supposedly practiced an FMA style that utilized the "chako" (nunchaku). Master Sioc emphasized that this style was very different from the Okinawan/Japanese style of nunchaku usage and was distinctly Filipino. However, as I did not have much opportunity to interview Master Sioc, I failed to obtain information on the history and origins of this "tabancora style" chako.

My late father, who was from Negros Occidental, knew how to use the chako and used it regularly in fights during his youth (mid 60's to 1970) which was supposedly around the time that Mr. Tabancora was active in the practice of his "chako". My father taught my uncle and my uncle taught me. I have shown what I know to Master Sioc and he said that indeed it was a "Filipino" style that I was taught. As I have no knowledge of the Okinawan style of nunchaku and haven't had the opportunity to go back home to the province to find Mr. Tabancora or his students, I am in no position to compare what I know to the more popular Okinawan style and can only rely on Master Sioc's verification of the "Filipino-ness" of what I was taught.

And even if it is proven that the style I was taught and the tabancora style (they could be one and the same) are truly filipino, the question still begs answering whether these and other styles are post-war innovations or whether they predate the Japanese Occupation in WWII.

#8 Hierophant

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 02:08 PM

QUOTE
Ever since an ancient Keris (Kris) was dug-up in an ancient temple in Okinawa, the idea that Malay (including Filipino) culture and martial arts could've influenced and could've been influenced by Okinawan culture and martial arts is becoming more feasible.

Actually, the national hero, Dr. Jose Rizal, already had the theory that the Japanese were actually descendants of a northerly wave of Malayo-Polynesian immigrants or seafarers that included the ancestors of today's Filipinos. They just happened to be Sinicized (Chinese-influenced) over several years, due to their proximity to China. Rizal based his theory on the fact that our folk tale The Monkey and the Turtle has an equivalent in the Japanese folktale of The Monkey and the Crab.

It is said that the first Japanese (aborigines) were Ainus and Malayo-Polynesians.

I also remember a GRO friend telling me about her uncle in Negros Occidental, who was an escrimador and whose repertoir of techniques included the "chaku".

QUOTE
Master Sioc emphasized that this style was very different from the Okinawan/Japanese style of nunchaku usage and was distinctly Filipino.

Would the manner in which Bruce Lee popularized the chucks in his movies be the Okinawan way of using the weapon? And would the Okinawan method of chuck usage be highly similar to nunchaku usage in Chinese kungfu? Dan, your opinion please.  smile.gif
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#9 jerry

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 08:01 PM

I would be surprised if Polynesians weren't the first to colonize the Ryukyu's.  Taiwan apparently has at least 15 extant groups of Polynesians who apparently predated the Chinese there.  Draeger mentioned an indigenous Okinawan art he thought was probably Polynesian (To?), but I can't find the reference anymore.  Anyway, it would be easy to determine with DNA testing now how people are related, but don't know if it has been done.  

Supposedly, the nunchaku is a "rice flail" and can also be used for planting, so probably any number of cultures could have adopted it in the distant past.  The Chinese not only have the nunchaku, but also any number of sectional weapons, including a long stick with a shorter stick tied to the end, the trisectional "staff", and various whips with usually 7 to 9 sections.  They all have their strong and weak points.

In my mind, Bruce Lee had the most to do with popularizing the nunchaku, since it doesn't have that many advantages over a stick twice the length.  Also nunchaku are a totally illegal carry here, whereas a stick is not.  For this reason, I never practiced them very much, even when they were popular.

#10 Matawguro

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 10:50 PM

QUOTE (torqui @ Feb 25 2006, 04:10 PM)
My late father, who was from Negros Occidental, knew how to use the chako and used it regularly in fights during his youth (mid 60's to 1970) which was supposedly around the time that Mr. Tabancora was active in the practice of his "chako". My father taught my uncle and my uncle taught me. I have shown what I know to Master Sioc and he said that indeed it was a "Filipino" style that I was taught.

The story Sioc told me is that George Tabancura (sp?) claimed he learned the chako from a Korean master, however a group of martial artists who went to Korea found out that the said Korean master didn't exist. This has led people to believe that Mr. Tabancura developed the system himself.
QUOTE
As I have no knowledge of the Okinawan style of nunchaku and haven't had the opportunity to go back home to the province to find Mr. Tabancora or his students, I am in no position to compare what I know to the more popular Okinawan style and can only rely on Master Sioc's verification of the "Filipino-ness" of what I was taught.

The only thing I have to go on regarding Okinawan nunchaku work is from Fumio Demura's book Nunchaku: Karate Weapon of Self-Defense. From what Sioc has shown me, here are my observations:

Weapon Design
- Unlike the usual nunchaku, the cord length of the chako used in the system is quite short. It should be long enough to allow the person to fold the chako, and the cord should be taut when done so. Most Nunchaku I've seen use the one-hand or two-hand length rule for the cord.

However, this doesn't mean that the japanese don't utilize the short cord length. A former boss of mine studied under  Japanese karateka who used the same nunchaku design.

Hard Blocks - Blocks done by the both systems are identical.

Whipping Techniques - This is where the differences start to show. A good number of the whipping techniques of the Tabancura system look quite similar to olisi strike combinations. Also, the system also has whipping techiques used in the corto-range as well as whipping strike to deal with opponents from behind.

Footwork - The footwork is very unusual. It's like someone dancing the tinikling. Unlike the Okinawan system, there is a total absence of long stances. The footwork combined with the corto whipping techniques is known as the Monkey Dance.

From what I've been told, the system is a recent development created specifically to counter Eskrima stickwork. There are no indications that it is a pre-hispanic system.
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#11 bayani

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 11:02 PM

QUOTE (Matawguro @ Feb 25 2006, 10:50 PM)
From what I've been told, the system is a recent development created specifically to counter Eskrima stickwork. There are no indications that it is a pre-hispanic system.


Interesting, we on the other hand have shown time and time again that the nunchaku has a lot of major limitations compared to a stick.
It is a one shot deal meaning you have to reload the weapon once it makes contact.  Knowing this has always played to our advantage as we would specifically attack the nunchaku to engage and defuse it then continue on with multiple attacks an example of this is the use of abaniko witiks which the nunchakus can't do.  

As a thrusting tool you are limited to a shorter tool as the extention is not there.

The one thing that can bee seen is that it is easy to transfer from stick work to nunchaku work with some slight modifications but the familiarity with angles of delivery are there. It makes you wonder which weapon Dan Inosanto leanred first and if it was the stick how much this played to his development of nunchako moves.   And as Jerry pointed out, they are illegal.

I think that Bruce Lee popularized it and added the flashy flair that everyone loves then....the ninja turltes and those flashy Karate demos.

I am still hard pressed to believe it was ever a farming tool used in the Philippines and as a weapon? Were already using knives , sticks , swords etc . It was not till the "chako" craze of the 70's that brought about it's prominence.

#12 Matawguro

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 12:12 AM

QUOTE (bayani @ Feb 26 2006, 07:02 AM)
Interesting, we on the other hand have shown time and time again that the nunchaku has a lot of major limitations compared to a stick.
It is a one shot deal meaning you have to reload the weapon once it makes contact.  Knowing this has always played to our advantage as we would specifically attack the nunchaku to engage and defuse it then continue on with multiple attacks an example of this is the use of abaniko witiks which the nunchakus can't do.

Thanks for bringing it up. It's something I forgot to mention.

The shortened cord modification on the nunchaku used by the Tabancura system almost removes the major limitation of the nunchaku. The nunchaku retains most  of the flexibilty, but almost none of the recoil problems commonly associated with flexible weapons.

That's why in the Tabancura system, recovery and rebound techniques seen in other nunchaku systems are absent, mainly because they're not needed. A witik to the head followed by strike to the knee a fraction of a second later is very much possible with the modified chako.

It's also interesting to note that the basic training with the modified chako are bigay-tama drills using sticks to feed.
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#13 bayani

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 05:21 AM

I can see how a shortened coil would help retain the rigidity but then why even bother removing the rigidity by having the break in the weapon? To be of any hard hit of consequence , the more rigid the better and if it really made a good impact it would still need to be reloaded.

Do you have any pics of this chuck? Nice to know we have innovated something wink.gif

#14 torqui

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 09:09 AM

QUOTE (Matawguro @ Feb 26 2006, 06:50 AM)
The story Sioc told me is that George Tabancura (sp?) claimed he learned the chako from a Korean master, however a group of martial artists who went to Korea found out that the said Korean master didn't exist. This has led people to believe that Mr. Tabancura developed the system himself.


My initial thought upon reading this was that George Tabancora might've said that because he thought people wouldn't take him seriously if he said he (a filipino) developed it himself.

But since the most popular martial arts during that time were Japanese and Chinese, why would he say he learned it from a Korean? Nobody would've been impressed. Did most people at that time even know that there were Korean martial arts? It would've been more advantageous to say a Japanese or Chinese master taught him. This implies that the korean master must be real.

Well, with a lot of imagination, I came up with this wild theory:

Inspired by the Bruce Lee and having a little access to Okinawan/Japanese Nunchaku techniques, George Tabancora developed the chako techniques himself. He modified the nunchaku techniques and borrowed heavily from FMA concepts to suit the Philippine setting and deal with the local martial arts.

To popularize it, he had to have a "foreign connection". Most people were not interested in local martial arts and were more impressed by things that came from Shaolin masters or Samurai Warriors.

However, since there were already established ties between Filipino Dojos/Kwoons and their Okinawan/Japanese and Chinese headquarters, it could easily be verified whether a particular Okinawan, Japanese or Chinese master did exist.

Since Korean martial arts were not as popular or even known of during that time, there were no established ties with any headquarters in Korea that could verify the existence of a particular Korean master. People would just have to take George Tabancora's word for it.

After, he would prove the formidability of his "chako" system and, once it gained respect and popularity, he could finally come out with the truth, change history and get the credit he deserved.

#15 torqui

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 09:42 AM

QUOTE (jerry @ Feb 26 2006, 04:01 AM)
I would be surprised if Polynesians weren't the first to colonize the Ryukyu's.  Taiwan apparently has at least 15 extant groups of Polynesians who apparently predated the Chinese there.  Draeger mentioned an indigenous Okinawan art he thought was probably Polynesian (To?), but I can't find the reference anymore.  Anyway, it would be easy to determine with DNA testing now how people are related, but don't know if it has been done. 

Supposedly, the nunchaku is a "rice flail" and can also be used for planting, so probably any number of cultures could have adopted it in the distant past.


There are some that don't subscribe to the rice flail theory. Some say the nunchaku evolved from a horse bit.

But whether rice flail or horse bit, I don't think the Polynesian migration had anything to do with a possible proliferation of nunchaku-type weapon.

If I am not mistaken, the polynesian migration involved groups in a hunting-gathering stage. Hunting-gathering supposedly preceded agriculture and the domestication of animals. Therefore, hunter-gatherers would'nt have any rice flails nor horse bits - and no nunchaku either.

It is AFTER the various polynesian (and other) migrations had colonized many lands and became isolated from each other for thousands of years that agriculture and domestication of animals developed. This lead to the diversity of cultures that evolved from the original polynesian breed.

Despite the fact that the inhabitants of the Philippines, Hawaii, New Zealand, Okinawa, etc share a distant polynesian ancestry, it seems that Okinawa is the only "polynesian-descended" culture that has a nunchaku. The Hawaiians, Maori, Fijians, etc. do not have nunchaku.

Okinawa was heavily influenced by Chinese culture as can be seen in their importation/modification/combination of various Chinese martial arts. It is a more reasonable assumption that the nunchaku, if it isn't indigenous to Okinawa, has it's origins in Chinese rather than Polynesian culture.

#16 jerry

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 01:43 PM

Ner Reodica is very good at twirling  a stick.  At a seminar I attended, somebody saw him twirling a stick, apparently not paying much attention, and asked him if it was a nunchaku.  He said, Yes, it's a nunchaku, but without the string. smile.gif

#17 Hierophant

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 03:38 AM

QUOTE
Okinawa was heavily influenced by Chinese culture as can be seen in their importation/modification/combination of various Chinese martial arts. It is a more reasonable assumption that the nunchaku, if it isn't indigenous to Okinawa, has it's origins in Chinese rather than Polynesian culture.

This is the most reasonable theory for the source of the nunchaku in Okinawa, and thereafter, Japan. Just like Karate, which came from Kungfu, Kobudo also came from Chinese weapon techniques. The sai and bo, for instance, are mainstay Kungfu weapons. Chinese kungfu grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit described the nunchakus (and the trisectional staff version thereof) as typical Kungfu weapons.

QUOTE
But I have yet to find a Philippine-based FMA style that has ever heard of the tabak-toyok or "chako" and acknowledges it as a traditional FMA weapon predating the Spanish conquest or at least prior to the Japanese occupation of these islands.

Like Raymund Andrea, I think any FMA that has nunchaku in it will have taken it from Japanese or Chinese influence either before or after WW2. And no earlier than that. The Japanese-Malayan connection theory is a very interesting idea, but it is not enough material on which to build an FMA nunchaku theory.
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#18 Raymund Andrea

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 04:00 AM

If chaku were indigenous to the Philippines, then why don't we have a word for it, either in any dialect or at least in Spanish? Instead, we have a loan word derived from the Japanese/Okinawan term "nunchaku" (chako, or tsako).

#19 torqui

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 08:14 AM

QUOTE (Raymund Andrea @ Feb 27 2006, 12:00 PM)
If chaku were indigenous to the Philippines, then why don't we have a word for it, either in any dialect or at least in Spanish? Instead, we have a loan word derived from the Japanese/Okinawan term "nunchaku" (chako, or tsako).


There is supposedly a Filipino term for it: "tabak-toyok". I first encountered the term "tabak-toyok" in Dan Inosanto's book so I guess that's where the rest of the world got it.

But there seems to be nobody around the Philippines who has heard of or uses that term. Could "tabak-toyok" be another phantom term like "Kali"?

The locally used term, "chako", definitely points to Okinawan/Japanese origins.

#20 Matawguro

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Raymund Andrea @ Feb 27 2006, 12:00 PM)
If chaku were indigenous to the Philippines, then why don't we have a word for it, either in any dialect or at least in Spanish? Instead, we have a loan word derived from the Japanese/Okinawan term "nunchaku" (chako, or tsako).

The absence of an indigenous term for the nunchaku doesn't necessarily mean that there wasn't one.

What leaves me to doubt the Filipino origins of the chako is that there doesn't seem to be any connection to Filipino culture. I don't think Filipino farmers use rice flails (I could be wrong though).

QUOTE (torqui @ Feb 27 2006, 04:14 PM)
There is supposedly a Filipino term for it: "tabak-toyok". I first encountered the term "tabak-toyok" in Dan Inosanto's book so I guess that's where the rest of the world got it.

But there seems to be nobody around the Philippines who has heard of or uses that term. Could "tabak-toyok" be another phantom term like "Kali"?


Sioc Glaraga has never heard of the term tabak-toyok either, and he's a veritable glossary of indigenous FMA terms.

BTW Bayani, I'll work on getting pictures of my modified nunchaku up.
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#21 Hierophant

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 02:40 PM

Matawguro, it's a basic rule in anthropology and linguistics that a culture that has a certain concept or several uses for a certain object has a rich vocabulary pertaining to it. Thus, being a rice culture, we have several terms for different kinds of rice (e.g., bigas, kanin, bahaw, sinangag, palay, etc., and the Eskimos have more than ten different terms for different kinds of ice! Since ice is foreign to Filipino culture (until the arrival of the Spaniards), we borrowed our word for ice, "yelo" from the Spanish "hielo".

We even have an old, precolonial and now unused word for elephant, which indicates our precolonial cultural links to the rest of Malaysia and Indonesia. (The Tagalog word "gadya", for elephant, relates to the Bahasa term gadjah, as in Gadjah Tunggal, the elephant brand of Malaysian rubber tires.) Same with the Tagalog word "kalis", which is our term for the Indonesian 'keris' and the Anglicized word 'kris'. (Precolonial Tagalog did not have the letter R.)

And sure enough, we didn't need rice flails since we already had 'alho' or pestles, which are still used today in really rural areas of the country.
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#22 Matawguro

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 12:21 AM

QUOTE (Hierophant @ Feb 27 2006, 10:40 PM)
Matawguro, it's a basic rule in anthropology and linguistics that a culture that has a certain concept or several uses for a certain object has a rich vocabulary pertaining to it.

While this is true, using the contra-positive of the above hypothesis will open you up to a negative proof fallacy which is deescribed in the quote "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." In other words, we cannaot conclude that if no one is aware of a pre-hispanic term for the chako, that there wasn't one.

Tagalog doesn't have a word for "sex" (not gender). You can't say the Tagalogs didn't have any concept of it else I would even exist.

We don't have a direct translation for "no", but Lapu-lapu clearly showed the concept of it.

The usual translation for "closed" is "sarado" which is from the spanish word "cerrado". Does that mean we never closed anything prior to the arrival of the Spanish?

While the apparent absence of a indigenous term for chako may point in the direction that it is not an indigenous weapon, solely relying on it as proof is a weak argument which has to be supported by other evidence.
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#23 jerry

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 02:01 AM

In different languages, there are different ways of approaching a "new" idea or subject.  In the case of the Tarahumara Indians, they simply borrow the Spanish and make it pronounceable, e.g. elephant is "aripante", airplane is "romplano", etc.  On the other hand, the Apache preferred to describe things in their own language without borrowing, so a door was "the thing that closes", etc.  In Tohono O'odham  (Papago), there is no word for thank you, but they will tell you how grateful they are for some service or gift instead.  As Matawguro notes, this opens the door for the possibility that there was a Filipino word for "nunchaku" (in some language or another), but it wasn't as easy to use as "chako".  My father of my son's best friend, who is Filipino/Hawaiian, calls everything "the thing", e.g. "Go get the thing."  Unfortunately, I don't think the origin of the nunchaku will ever be cleared up, as they are made of wood, as organic cultural materials, especially in the tropics, don't tend to last very long in archaelogical sites.

#24 torqui

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (Hierophant)
Same with the Tagalog word "kalis", which is our term for the Indonesian 'keris' and the Anglicized word 'kris'. (Precolonial Tagalog did not have the letter R.)


I don't really know if it's true that precolonial tagalog had no letter "R". Weren't the letters "D" and "R" even interchangeable as in "maDami" and "maRami" or "dumuDugo" and "dumuRugo"? It seems strange that we wouldn't have it if the Indonesians did. Filipinos are supposedly Indo-Malays who sailed to the Philippines from Indonesia/Malaysia right? Did we drop the letter "R" when we got here or did the Indonesians start using the letter "R" after we left?

We also have terms like "guro" which, if I'm not mistaken, is pre-hispanic and maybe even pre-islamic in the Philippines. "Guro" comes from the Indian word "Guru" and has similar meanings right?


QUOTE (matawguro)
Tagalog doesn't have a word for "sex" (not gender). You can't say the Tagalogs didn't have any concept of it else I would even exist.


Isn't it  "talik" as in "nakipag-talik"? There's also this slang term "kant*t" in tagalog and "it*t" in ilonggo (note: they rhyme).

QUOTE (matawguro)
We don't have a direct translation for "no", but Lapu-lapu clearly showed the concept of it.


Isn't it  "hindi" in tagalog, "indi" in ilonggo and "dili" in cebuano?

QUOTE (matawguro)
The usual translation for "closed" is "sarado" which is from the spanish word "cerrado". Does that mean we never closed anything prior to the arrival of the Spanish?


I don't know if the following is a modern invention like "salumpuwit" (chair) but isn't the word for closed "pinid" as in "naka-pinid" ang pintuan?


QUOTE (matawguro)
While the apparent absence of a indigenous term for chako may point in the direction that it is not an indigenous weapon, solely relying on it as proof is a weak argument which has to be supported by other evidence.


True! True! True!

#25 Matawguro

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 02:11 PM

QUOTE (torqui @ Feb 28 2006, 07:06 PM)
QUOTE (matawguro)
Tagalog doesn't have a word for "sex" (not gender). You can't say the Tagalogs didn't have any concept of it else I would even exist.

Isn't it  "talik" as in "nakipag-talik"? There's also this slang term "kant*t" in tagalog and "it*t" in ilonggo (note: they rhyme).

In usage, "pakikipagtalik" seems to be closer to "intercourse" rather than sex. Though they mean the same thing the connotations are somewhat different.

QUOTE
QUOTE (matawguro)
We don't have a direct translation for "no", but Lapu-lapu clearly showed the concept of it.

Isn't it  "hindi" in tagalog, "indi" in ilonggo and "dili" in cebuano?

Those translations seem to we closer to "not" in usage rather than "no".
QUOTE
QUOTE (matawguro)
The usual translation for "closed" is "sarado" which is from the spanish word "cerrado". Does that mean we never closed anything prior to the arrival of the Spanish?

I don't know if the following is a modern invention like "salumpuwit" (chair) but isn't the word for closed "pinid" as in "naka-pinid" ang pintuan?

"Nakapinid" is indeed correct, although it's no longer in common usage, which is my main point. Certain indigenous have already been supplanted by foreign words probably due to ease of use or the foreign word conveys the idea better than the indigenous word.

It's the same thing with the basic strikes. A good number of the current FMA systems have resorted to using numbers instead of names for the various strikes. A century from now, practitioners may not even remember or realize that the strikes have names.
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#26 Hierophant

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE
I don't really know if it's true that precolonial tagalog had no letter "R". Weren't the letters "D" and "R" even interchangeable as in "maDami" and "maRami" or "dumuDugo" and "dumuRugo"? It seems strange that we wouldn't have it if the Indonesians did. Filipinos are supposedly Indo-Malays who sailed to the Philippines from Indonesia/Malaysia right? Did we drop the letter "R" when we got here or did the Indonesians start using the letter "R" after we left?

According to Father Pedro Chirino or some other Spanish friar, our ancestors did not have an R in their alphabet. They used instead the letter D. I'm not sure why or how they are used as alternates for each other.

From this website:
QUOTE
The R Sound

The Tagalogs used only one character for da and ra, . The pronunciation of this letter depended on its location within a word. The grammatical rule has survived in modern Filipino that when a d is between two vowels, it becomes an r as in the words dangál (honour) and marangál (honourable), or dunong (knowledge) and marunong (knowledgeable).

However, this rule could not be relied upon in other languages, so when other linguistic groups adopted the baybayin, different ways of representing the r sound were required. The Visayans apparently used the d/ra character for their own words but used the la character for Spanish words. (See Visayan examples.) Fr. Lopez's choice of d/ra or la seemed to be random in the Ilokano Doctrina, which caused many corruptions of Ilokano words. (See excerpts from his Doctrina.) However, a chart drawn by Sinibaldo de Mas in 1843 showed la doubling for the Ilokano ra while his Pangasinan list showed no substitute for ra at all. The Bikolanos modified the d/ra character to make a distinct letter for ra. (See the chart in Baybayin Styles.)


In Bicol, the word for priest or 'pari' is PADI. In an old Cebuano translation of "Our Father", the word 'kingdom' is translated as 'pagkahaDi'. I think the Ilonggos to this day retain the tradition of translating R into 'DL'--e.g., "tuDLo" for "tuRo".

Let's assume nunchakus were indigenous to the Philippines, having come over before or during the Spanish times, from China or Japan or elsewhere. Or having been developed by our ancestors' originality. To describe the weapon, they would have to have terms, right?

Suppose the 60s and 70s came and it became more convenient to use the word 'chaku' or 'tsako' instead of whatever word was originally used (e.g, tabak-toyok). Then we should find some old men practicing the indigenous chucks who still use the old term. But we find NONE. Where are they? We could go to the hinterlands or to the Maranaws and Tausugs in Mindanao to look for their version of the indigenous chucks. But there is NONE.
"So many of our dreams at first seem impossible. Then they seem improbable. And then, when we summon the WILL, they soon become inevitable." -- Christopher Reeve

#27 Matawguro

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 05:04 PM

QUOTE (Hierophant @ Feb 28 2006, 11:01 PM)
Then we should find some old men practicing the indigenous chucks who still use the old term. But we find NONE. Where are they? We could go to the hinterlands or to the Maranaws and Tausugs in Mindanao to look for their version of the indigenous chucks. But there is NONE.

Again, it's the negative proof fallacy. It doesn't mean that if you found none then there is none. You have to prove that the existence an indigenous term is not possible.

It's like the giant squid from 20,000 leagues under the sea. People used to think it's a fictional creature like the dragon or pegasus because nobody from modern times ever saw one. However, eventually, in 2004 they did.

How many planets does the solar system have? Nine? Or would it be more accurate to say that there are only nine that we know of or that we have only found nine? In fact there is already debate on a possible tenth planet being discovered.

The only way you can make the absence of the indigenous term for the nunchaku stick is to say that it doesn't exist in every dialect for every speaker that ever existed.

Again, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Check out these examples from the link...

Copyright

Ayn Rand has argued for the existence of copyrights, or government-granted monopolies on the expression in an original work of authorship, using a "lack of imagination" argument:

Claim: Copyright must exist, or authors will not create works.

Evidence: No system other than copyright can reward authors enough.

Reasonable doubt: Human thought does not cover all of the business models all of the time. In fact, I know of two business models other than copyright for publication of a work: patronage by advertisers and trade secret licensing.

The Poincaré Conjecture: First try

The Poincaré conjecture states that any compact manifold that is simply connected (that is, doesn't have any holes in it) is homeomorphic to a sphere of the same dimension. This has been proven true for manifolds of all dimensions except for 3-dimensional manifolds (3-spheres in 4-space).

Claim: The Poincaré conjecture is true.

Evidence: Nobody has found a counterexample.

Reasonable doubt: Human thought does not cover all of the possible 3-manifolds all of the time. Other conjectures have gone for a century without a counterexample, only to have some mathematician find a disproof.

The Poincaré Conjecture: Second try

Claim: The Poincaré conjecture is unprovable.

Evidence: It has gone unproven for nearly a century.

Reasonable doubt: Other conjectures have gone unproven for a century and were either proven, disproven, or proven to be Gödel-complete.

Fairies: First try

Claim: Fairies do not exist.

Evidence: No respected human biologist has ever seen a fairy directly.

Reasonable doubt: Human reconnaissance does not cover all of the universe all of the time. Specifically, human recon is bad at peering into the underground structures where some fairies are said to make their homes.


Fairies: Second try


According to my measurement of an artist's conception drawn by Myrea Pettit and shown on the web at http://www.fairiesworld.com/homepage.htm, a fairy is about eight times as tall as an acorn; this puts the height of a fairy roughly in the same order of magnitude as the height of a Lilliputian. But a fairy is supposed to be both small and intelligent enough to use language reminiscent of that of a human being. These are conflicting goals because brain-case size limits number of neurons, which in turn limits intelligence (Alex the Parrot notwithstanding).

Claim: Fairies cannot exist because beings with the size and intelligence of a fairy do not exist.

Evidence: No respected human biologist has ever seen a being with the size and intelligence of a fairy.

Reasonable doubt: Human recon does not cover all of the universe all of the time. There may be other creatures and other forms of intelligent life that we just don't know about.
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#28 bayani

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 05:56 PM

Dude , I see fairies all the time, they are in TV, San Francisco, fly the rainbow flag and now have a Movie "Brokeback mountian"

#29 Matawguro

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 06:56 PM

LOL!
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#30 torqui

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:45 PM

QUOTE (Hierophant @ Feb 28 2006, 11:01 PM)
Then we should find some old men practicing the indigenous chucks who still use the old term. But we find NONE. Where are they? We could go to the hinterlands or to the Maranaws and Tausugs in Mindanao to look for their version of the indigenous chucks. But there is NONE.


Finding no evidence that something exists only proves one thing - that one hasn't found any evidence that that thing exists. Therefore, that is the only conclusion one can draw. Any conclusions beyond that would be pure conjecture, wouldn't it?

Perhaps a test:

Given:
It is night time and you see a car parked in the dark part of a school parking lot. You move a little closer and you see that the windows are foggy making it impossible to see inside and the car is rocking rhythmically.

Question:
What is happening?