Datu, Raja, and other Titles Options

[bayani]

I know we talked about this in the past and I could not find the thread, there was one answer that talked about how this rank was given or by whom ( Philippine Government, Sultante in Mindanao?

This questions was sent in another forum:

I was in the book store this past weekend and thumbed through the latest
Inside Kung Fu (May 2006). In it, I read an interview that Grandmaster
Roland Dantes had done with Datu Kelly Worden. It's good to know that IKF
devotes pages in their magazine to the Filipino arts and related activities,
especially since there are few magazines as it is in the martial arts
category.

In the article there was of course, discussion of the late Remy Presas and
his contributions. What made me wonder was a bit in there where Datu Worden
spoke of his title, Datu, and the controversy that it conjures up in some
circles. I expected to read that as the article was journalistically
balanced, but it seemed to me that he was seeking GM Dantes' approval that
it was proper for him to use it. Understand that I have no vendettas or
agendas here in voicing my views. Of course, Mr. Worden should be
commended for what he did for Remy Presas in his last days, and the fact
that he's done quite well in the martial arts industry. That said, is it
worth it to ruffle feathers over the use of a title that some find offensive
when used by non-Filipinos? I read what the Grand Master said about it and
how he felt it was indeed proper to use by anyone so designated.

Is this an issue (use of the title) that has been addressed or resolved by
the art's governing authorities in the Philippines? I understand it's a
title and obviously Mr. Worden would do nothing to disgrace the Filipino
arts. Will there ever be a resolution of the controversy that surrounds its
use?

Wild Bill


It's been an on going thing with Modern Arnis worldwide to continue to use these Titles outside the Philippines. Is there anyone using the Title Datu as a Martial Art rank openly in the Philippines?

[Matawguro]

Is there anyone using the Title Datu as a Martial Art rank openly in the Philippines?

Anyone who does so will be laughed at by the common man on the street. Why? It's akin to Manny Pacquiao referring to himself as Senator or Duke. It's also in the same vein as a Kendo master being conferred the rank of shogun.

Personally, I don't think that a non-Filipino's use of the Datu title is an insult to Filipinos. Actually, I think it's a disservice to non-Filipinos who worked hard to attain the knowledge and skill that they have. They deserve the recognition, but not by conferring to them a title that is a potential source of embarrassment or grief.

The Order of Sikatuna is a different thing altogether. It does not confer political ranks but a ranks of honor to diplomats who served to improve diplomatic ties with the Philippines. Unfortunately, the whole thing is quite contrived since The Order of Sikatuna is not an ancient order. However, it was created by presidential mandate so it's an accepted way to be confered the rank of datu. Also, diplomats who have been given the honor don't go around introducing themselves as Datu Soandso, though it may appear in his curriculum vitae. Have ever heard former ambassador Francis Ricciardone introduce himself as Datu?

Legally, there's nothing wrong with using titles of royalty in a ranking system. But I think Remy Presas could have chosen better.

[Black Kamagong]

Hello Bayani, as far as modern arnis here in the Philippines I havent heard anyone using such title ( although I may be wrong ). As we Filipino's know, such titles are passed down from royal families who are Muslims in the Mindanao region.

Grandmaster Remy Presas was suppose to appoint 10 "Datu" ranked practitioners to spread Modern Arnis in the Western Hemisphere as his successors. At the time of his death, it is said the he "OFFICIALLY" only appointed 6 "DATUS" which are:

1.) Shishir Inocalla - U.S. ( or Canada )
2.) Kelly Worden - U.S.
3.) Ric Bong Sun Jornales - U.S.
4.) Dieter Knuttel - Germany
5.) David Hoffman - England
6.) Tim Hartman - U.S.

Although I have no inside knowledge about this since it was done outside of the Philippines ( and probably before my time ) I do sometimes hear rumbles in the Modern Arnis community regarding the use of this "title".

What actually caught the ire of some hardcore Modern Arnis practicioners here in the Philippines before is that some of the " Datus" claimned that they were the only ones that Grandmaster Remy shared full knowledge of his art especially knife fighting. That would mean that Grandmaster Remy did not impart all his knowledge to his own brother Grandmaster Ernesto Presas.

Im not out to destroy anybody, these are just some stuff that I have heard before. I also admit that I cannot verify this so please forgive me if Im wrong. I do salute the people who propagate Grandmaster Remy's art around the world and may they continue to do so but hopefully not at the expense of the Philippine based Modern Arnis people.

Personally, I think one vision of a real bad ass datu is my avatar hehehe.

If other Modern Arnis practicioners can elaborate on the titles of "datu's" given by Grandmaster Remy then all the better. Also if anyone knows an instructor who uses the term "Datu" here in the Philippines please do share it with us.

[nosyac]

I agree with Matawguro. Personally, it's not proper to use them either Datu, Rajah. Does Raja or Rajah means a king? If you use this title, what made you a king? I respect GM Remy Presas but does he use the title of Rajah or Datu?

[dan]

Those titles are no doubt muslim in nature. Have the muslims gave up those titles or terms so that it is now open to be use use by none muslim people?

People who use those titles should they first be converted to Islam?

Or should those titles be awarded by muslim leaders to none muslims as an honorary title?

[bayani]

I think it boils down to cultural sensitivity, Respect for terms that are sensitive to toher peoples. In Pinas the Modern Arnis guys there won't use it so why should it be used elsewhere? It was never to downplay the accomplsihments of our foreign brothers who share the love of the art but I think there are better choices that could have been used. it is not thier fault that they were not aware of this sensitivity - but they are AWARE when they use it as this has been a subject spoken for years, the choice to continue the use of this term is a sign of "irreverenace" ( is this correct?)_or sign of not carring about the Islamic people of the Philippines , Like I said , It would not be wise for these Datus and Rajas to use this Tittle in Divisoria or Mindanao- we ourselves don't use it.

[Peter Lewis]

Hi All

A great topic and very interesting.

As a relative outsider (albeit married into the culture for 19 years) it has never seemed correct to use such titles as Datu or Raja. This is in no way meant to discredit anyone using that title, it simply doesn't appear in the right context. A comparison with Japanese arts, for example, would see the use of Sempei (Senior - Kuya / Ate ), Sensei (Teacher - Guro) or Shihan (Master - Punong Guro / Pangulong Guro). (Tagalog terms are only approximate for the level guys!!!)
The basic terms of Kuya / Ate, Guro, Punong Guro etc are more commonly used in everyday life and therefore it is much easier to understand the meaning.

Actually, in the UK I have come across people questioning the use of "Guro" for a teacher of FMA. Surely, if a person is teaching, then they are a "Guro" in the literal sense at least. Maraming puti sa UK ay bobo! Not sure if the Tagalog is correct, but it sounds great to me!

Gumagalang

Datu Puti ooooops! Peter

[sangot]

...the only Modern Arnis pinoy using the title of datu is Datu Shishir, now
resides in florida...his email to me thou using his name instead of datu
but of course i always address him sa datu...(sign of respect)

...other than him i dont know anyone using datu as title and i dont think someone in the modern arnis group in the phils will use it.

...just found out that i belong to royal family...so i will declare myself datu tomorrow...you may now call me Datu Sangot .....(Joke!!)

[dan]

...the only Modern Arnis pinoy using the title of datu is Datu Shishir, now
resides in florida...his email to me thou using his name instead of datu
but of course i always address him sa datu...(sign of respect)

...other than him i dont know anyone using datu as title and i dont think someone in the modern arnis group in the phils will use it.

...just found out that i belong to royal family...so i will declare myself datu tomorrow...you may now call me Datu Sangot .....(Joke!!)

You have to be muslim first before you can be datu or else you are just a usurper

[bayani]

So from a Filipino stand point I guess we are all in agreement that using these titles are improper?

Being a Filipino Martial Arts cultural sensitivity is a must and a sign of respect. I don't think anyone here feels that the high ranks are not deserved just the Titles were never belonged to the Late R. Presas to give away for use as rank.

Would it not be easy enough to just use a different rank structure? I don't see the big deal in the change, I do see a big deal when there is a disregard to Muslim Sultanate.

[sangot]

...baguhan
...Dalubhasa
...Mandirigma sunod daw
...Mandarambong

[nosyac]

I don't see any issues using "guro" or "punong guro" or "tuhon" as a title. They are in the same meaning. Datu, Rajah or Sultan are not just right to use. No disrespect to these masters but why it has to be that title? As dan pointed out... you have to be a muslim to get a title like those. Wearing clothes like the Datus, Rajahs or Sultans are a sign of respect... but titles are a sign or mockery and disrespectful to the culture they believe in.

[dyak_stone]

I don't see any issues using "guro" or "punong guro" or "tuhon" as a title.  They are in the same meaning.  Datu, Rajah or Sultan are not just right to use.  No disrespect to these masters but why it has to be that title?  As dan pointed out... you have to be a muslim to get a title like those.  Wearing clothes like the Datus, Rajahs or Sultans are a sign of respect... but titles are a sign or mockery and disrespectful to the culture they believe in.

I have a muslim friend from highschool, and I remember when it was cultural week people would dress in traditional costumes, and he would roll his eyes and comment on people who would wear muslim attire improperly. This friend of mine has Datu as part of his first name, and he says that a lot of muslim families do retain their titles from the days of old, though even in their society today the word "datu" does not necessarly signify a special caste or special treatment or anything. It's just a name. Social status comes from actual political/monetary power, regardless of their title. Though a lot of powerful political families there do have datu in their names.

Also, I have heard that the word tuhon means "great god" in some Filipino language. Does anyone know anything about this? And
does anyone know where mandala came from?

And in Tagalog, magulang can mean either "parent" or "cheater".

[Matawguro]

Slightly off-topic and just in case it comes up, my username Matawguro is a derivative of Mataw-an Guro which (I've been told) means "respected teacher". A mataw-an guro is a muslim spritual teacher so a derivative for use in FMA is more apt.

The "Matawguro" designation is used in Sioc Glaraga's ranking system in Kalaki Eskrima. To my knowledge, lakanpopot is the only other person on this forum to hold the rank, which he received way before I did.

[Matawguro]

Grandmaster Remy Presas was suppose to appoint 10 "Datu" ranked practitioners to spread Modern Arnis in the Western Hemisphere as his successors.

That actually explains a lot. I'm guessing the title is used metaphorcally as being akin to the 10 Bornean Datus myth.

[bayani]

Tuan in bahasa Indonesia means Mr.

Could anyone list levels and their meanings? As in Lakan, yakan etc.

[FUS]

...the only Modern Arnis pinoy using the title of datu is Datu Shishir, now
resides in florida...his email to me thou using his name instead of datu
but of course i always address him sa datu...(sign of respect)

...other than him i dont know anyone using datu as title and i dont think someone in the modern arnis group in the phils will use it.

...just found out that i belong to royal family...so i will declare myself datu tomorrow...you may now call me Datu Sangot .....(Joke!!)

You have to be muslim first before you can be datu or else you are just a usurper

Or Lumad.

[FUS]

I don't see any issues using "guro" or "punong guro" or "tuhon" as a title.  They are in the same meaning.  Datu, Rajah or Sultan are not just right to use.  No disrespect to these masters but why it has to be that title?  As dan pointed out... you have to be a muslim to get a title like those.  Wearing clothes like the Datus, Rajahs or Sultans are a sign of respect... but titles are a sign or mockery and disrespectful to the culture they believe in.

I have a muslim friend from highschool, and I remember when it was cultural week people would dress in traditional costumes, and he would roll his eyes and comment on people who would wear muslim attire improperly. This friend of mine has Datu as part of his first name, and he says that a lot of muslim families do retain their titles from the days of old, though even in their society today the word "datu" does not necessarly signify a special caste or special treatment or anything. It's just a name. Social status comes from actual political/monetary power, regardless of their title. Though a lot of powerful political families there do have datu in their names.

Also, I have heard that the word tuhon means "great god" in some Filipino language. Does anyone know anything about this? And
does anyone know where mandala came from?

And in Tagalog, magulang can mean either "parent" or "cheater".

Tuhon means God in Tausug. You will not hear a Tausug address any instructor as Tuhon.

[FUS]

I don't see any issues using "guro" or "punong guro" or "tuhon" as a title.  They are in the same meaning.  Datu, Rajah or Sultan are not just right to use.  No disrespect to these masters but why it has to be that title?  As dan pointed out... you have to be a muslim to get a title like those.  Wearing clothes like the Datus, Rajahs or Sultans are a sign of respect... but titles are a sign or mockery and disrespectful to the culture they believe in.

I have a muslim friend from highschool, and I remember when it was cultural week people would dress in traditional costumes, and he would roll his eyes and comment on people who would wear muslim attire improperly. This friend of mine has Datu as part of his first name, and he says that a lot of muslim families do retain their titles from the days of old, though even in their society today the word "datu" does not necessarly signify a special caste or special treatment or anything. It's just a name. Social status comes from actual political/monetary power, regardless of their title. Though a lot of powerful political families there do have datu in their names.

Also, I have heard that the word tuhon means "great god" in some Filipino language. Does anyone know anything about this? And
does anyone know where mandala came from?

And in Tagalog, magulang can mean either "parent" or "cheater".

Members from one of the royal houses of Mindanao were visiting the United States a few years back. They found out that someone in the area they were visiting claimed to be a datu. They said "oh really" and checked their Tarsillas. After finding no connection of that person to the royal houses of Mindanao, or the Prophet(peace be on him) they decided that the person must be the datu of America and left it at that.

[Black Kamagong]

Grandmaster Remy Presas was suppose to appoint 10 "Datu" ranked practitioners to spread Modern Arnis in the Western Hemisphere as his successors.

That actually explains a lot. I'm guessing the title is used metaphorcally as being akin to the 10 Bornean Datus myth.

That's one portion of it but there's a simpler explanation for that but its not my place to say it eh Sorry guys

[sangot]

...binitin mo pa sagot mo...sige na wag ka na mahiya

[Sitbatan]

How about Shogun Bob on Bullshido??? hehe
We should in a "karmatic way" use European Royal titles like...
His Imperial Majesty the King of Manong Carding's Kabaroan.

or

His Excellency, the Duke of Barangay Ngitpa....Mortidio de la pwet.

hehe

[Hierophant]

Actually, "Datu" and "Rajah" are not Muslim titles. In Mindanao, you have Bagobo and Mandaya and other "lumad" (native Mindanao tribesmen) who carry the title of Datu. The Bagobos and other lumads of Mindanao are definitely not Muslim--most are either pagan or Christian.

These titles were used in precolonial Philippines by both Islamicized and pagan pre-Spanish Filipinos. Therefore, they cannot be tied to Islam or a particular religion. If at all, the only title that is tied directly to Islam is that of "Sultan".

These titles shouldn't be used in the Philippines because it's like walking around calling yourself a king or a prince or a ruler--since 'king' and 'prince' and 'ruler' are what the titles DATU and RAJAH stand for.

[nosyac]

These titles shouldn't be used in the Philippines because it's like walking around calling yourself a king or a prince or a ruler--since 'king' and 'prince' and 'ruler' are what the titles DATU and RAJAH stand for.

If not, so the idea of using the title outside Philippines is not of a concern. Hmmm... interesting

[bayani]

How about Shogun Bob on Bullshido??? hehe
We should in a "karmatic way" use European Royal titles like...
His Imperial Majesty the King of Manong Carding's Kabaroan.

or

His Excellency, the Duke of Barangay Ngitpa....Mortidio de la pwet.

hehe

[oosh]

"How about Shogun Bob on Bullshido??? hehe
We should in a "karmatic way" use European Royal titles like...
His Imperial Majesty the King of Manong Carding's Kabaroan.

or

His Excellency, the Duke of Barangay Ngitpa....Mortidio de la pwet.

hehe"

lol seems reasonable to me dude it works both ways...infact why stop at Duke may aswell go for EMPEROR it worked for Napoleon lol ! but on a serious note, it seems slightly contradictory to represent and promote a Filipino Martial Art and at the same time use a title that would not be used in the Philippines; Irrespective of whether your feet are on Filipino soil or not.

[Raul]

Red Herring is more appropriate than Red Neck.

[bayani]

This was posted by others who are not Pinoys but FMA artist as well.






Personally, I have long been leeary of the "datu" title in Modern Arnis. I
am guessing
that the late Professor Presas was referring back to a cultural image in
Filipino history
regarding the 10 Datus from Borneo and he want to establish a leadership
group tied
to that concept. But I believe that it was a poor decision to use the
"datu" designation.
The very same thing could have been achieved with the use of another term
such as
"chieftians" or "punong guro". All of this began before the internet came
into existance
and then general public usage.

I doubt that the people so named will give up the title or agree to
substitute word for
the current title. It's a shame because the cultural insult is quite real
and needless.

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many people use the "Punong Guro" designation since to some whom I've asked
about it, say it most accurately reflects that they are both a teacher and
perennial student. True, in the last 10 years, internet use has exploded.
In writing this reply, I Googled the term "Datu" and it shows up over 6
million times. It's an acronym, Wikipedia says "The title "Datu" has been
bestowed upon 6 practitioners of the martial art known as Modern Arnis. Remy
Presas, the founder of the system, decided to use the title as a
"leadership" signifier, separate from rank. It has been the source of some
controversy in the Filipino based systems." and of course entry number 3 is
Mr. Worden's site. Sorry Tim Hartman fans, he was 18th in the hit list that
came back. In using Google, I find that due to various ranking scenarios
they use, you might get different results. I was surprised that I got the
same results using Datu and "Datu", the later searching for the specific
term rather than all hits that have the term somewhere in it.

I concur with your assessment that those who use it won't do the class thing
and lose it, despite the fact that it offends Filipinos, including those who
might be associating with them in martial endeavors.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree completely with your assessment, although on person, Shishir
Inocalla is Filipino
and was awarded the title by the a Filipino authority before coming to first
Canada and later
the USA. He holds the Datu title even without the Modern Arnis recognition
of the same.
PG Ric "Bong Sun" Jornales, also a Filipino does not use the title in any of
his promotional
materials that I am aware of. That leaves Kelly Worden, Dieter Knuttel,
David Hoffman and
Tim Hartman, as the holders of the Modern Arnis title under the late
Professor. Each man
has to make their own decision about the title usage.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wikipedia notes this about Datu Inocalla: Shishir Inocalla is considered by
many to be a true ambassador of the Filipino arts. He was the first of 6 men
named as Datu by the late Remy Presas, Founder of Modern Arnis. But you're
right, others use this title of address to describe him and I found nothing
that he was using it. But again, there are those who have argued that
unless it comes from the Philippine government or those who can award it
culturally, Filipino or not, it's wrong in their eyes.

I agree, GM Jornales says nothing on his site about this title. That's what
I mean by class, these two men who have the ethnic ties to the Philippines,
don't market the term. On contrast, I found this from a search that
disclosed this "Martialpedia" entry, which models the Wikipedia site but is
managed by another discussion forum. Why do I walk away feeling that the
"branding" as if it were a consumer product will continue?

"Datu, What does it mean?
Chieftain, Leader, or Warlord are the ways that it has been decribed to me
in the Filipino culture. I have talked to several Masters & Grandmasters of
Filipino heritage. It has also been referred to as a Spiritual Leader. Any
one you chose, it has a significant meaning in their culture. - Datu Tim
Hartman"

"Datus in Modern Arnis
As Remy decribed to me on several occasions, Datu is a leadership title in
the original IMAF. One of the main reasons that Remy bestowed the title on
me was the fact that I chose to lead by example. When it came time to get
promoted I would insist on testing in front of everyone. I was not afraid of
being seen by our community. I thought, and still do think, that too much
rank was given out for political reasons and not for technical ones. In 1999
Remy offered my the title. I turned it down because, at that time, I didn't
feel that I was ready for it. The following year I was offered it again and
accepted it. Talking to many of the East Coast Modern Arnis people, they
feel that only one title supercedes Datu and that was Grandmaster. - Datu
Tim Hartman"

"Datu vs Rank
The title is separate from rank. When I was first offered it, I was only a
fifth. Remy thought that leadership ability had nothing to do with what they
wear on their waist. This is why I was put in charge of the Can-Am charpter
of the IMAF while he was alive. At the time, there were several active
memebers who out ranked me but he still chose to put me in charge of that
and several other projects of his. The same went for Punong-Guro; rank was
separate from that also. It means teacher of teachers. I was also the only
one in the IMAF that I know of that Remy bestowed that title on. - Datu Tim
Hartman"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is compounded by two conflicting situations. Several of the
people holding the title have built their martial arts credential and
reputation around the title "datu" and are very reluctant to back away form
it's usage. That is strictly a personal decision. The fact that the usage
of the title has created some negative cultural feelings seems to be
unimportant to these people using the title. I clearly remember when a
fellow named Westbrook adopted for himself the title of "Archbishop" in
conjunction to his martial arts ranking and position in a FMA organization,
a number of Americans became quite upset and very vocal about the matter.
That played out on Ray Terry's Eskrima Digest a number of years ago. So
what is culturally sensitive and what is merely a
title apparently depends on which side of the issue you are on as well as
whether or not you have the title. I suspect that a number of people got
Westbrook's point with regard to the "archbishop" title, but none wanted to
publicly acknowledge it, although the denunciations did stop almost as fast
as they started.

In summary, I would have to suggest that it is unlikely that the usage of
'datu' in a martial arts context is not going to stop, however, it is
equally unlikely that more people will either assign or assume the title in
the future. It's a bad compromise, but it about all we can expect fro the
time being.

Sincerely,

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what I can see from my internet scan, and these are only the cached
sites mind you, only 2 of the 6 use "Datu" as a common term of address for
themselves and in their business interests. I too remember "Westbrook" and
his postings elsewhere. Seeing that he was attacked for his choice of
address does not surprise me, as it was done to point out the inflation of
both rank and titles. It is a bad compromise that those who are from the
Philippines must continue to be insulted, all in the name of "credentials".
The classy thing would be to free the Philippine people from this blatant
abuse of their cultural heritage, but it takes class to do so and move on.

Wild Bill

[nosyac]

Thanks Bayani! I think and in my opinion... Tim Hartman had a shallow reasons why he accepted the title of datu. He must have been thinking that "datu" in Bisaya and Hiligaynon term means "RICH" as in wealthy. The other pinoy didn't use the title because he knows what it means and how to be one in the first place. Shirshir Inocalla must be of muslim heritage that's why he retains it. I remembered one time that there was an answer that "knutel" is of royal blood... muslim royal blood? As far as I know he is German.

Mabuti pa mag-Royal Margarine na lang ako... I think no one will haunt me for the title except trademark issues...

[sangot]

....totoo talagang royal blood ako...nagsimula yan nung bata ako mahilig ako sa Royal na softdrinks...kaya please lang call me datu sangot