FMA BULLSHIDO LIST, this is to shed some light on the BS!! Options

[bahad_zu'bu]

.......to some then, FMA would be politically incorrect...

bro soulguru, a little insight please...

[Black Grass]

... But if we did join (or do join in the future), our martial arts (escrima, kuntaw, silat, etc) would be described as "Malaysian" wouldn't they?....
...

Well we could still consider Malaysian. After all Filipino's are Malay and Asian. :-)

Vince
aka Black Grass

[Raul]

The first Filipinos were not even natives of the islands but spaniards born here. So Filipino Martial Arts could be actually Spanish Martial Arts?

[Junior Hinay]

The first Filipinos were not even natives of the islands but spaniards born here. So Filipino Martial Arts could be actually Spanish Martial Arts?

this thread is boring me, I can't find anyone to argue!.. seems everyone is jumping way ahead of what's on my mind!!

pero, sigi butangi!!

[Raul]

Go to Datu thread... its fun there!

[sangot]

....datu thread is always the best to choose if you want neverending arguments
...debate that can lead to sparring nad the best thing about it you can say anything you want in the internet

[Hierophant]

In the 1960s, the Philippines tried to form a sort of alliance with the then newly formed Malaysian Federation and Indonesia, to be called MAPHILINDO. It was just a federation though, sort of like the EU or NATO.

Muslim Filipinos from Mindanao are Filipinos too. Hence Filipino silat styles are Filipino. Therefore, using a BROADER definition of FMA, Filipino silat like Silaga, Silat Asli, etc. would be FMA, just as Yaw-Yan, Sari-an, etc. Now, if those silat styles used the kerambit and the sarong as part of their repertoire, then these weapons would be FMA weapons -- under the broader definition.

However, by connotation, FMA often refers only to arnis/escrima.

[Sitbatan]

C'mon now bros.... we all know FMA is Arnis. I mean the rest like kickboxing, boxing, wrestling, and silat are add ons.

I mean is Combat Aikido also FMA too? What about all the Karate clubs in PI? What about Tae Kwon do?? All these styles could care less about being "Filipino".

It's only when Arnis was putting in work to get the Philippines recognized that all these other "Filipino" martial artist jumped on the band wagon...

Without Arnis, Philippines would have never got the recognition for martial arts!

[malapitan]

I mean is Combat Aikido also FMA too?

Oh...My...God. Please tell me people don't think that.

[torqui]

......to some then, FMA would be politically incorrect...

I mean is Combat Aikido also FMA too?

Oh...My...God. Please tell me people don't think that.

I really think it depends on one's perspective. Now, to make the discussion easier to manage, how about defining FMA first.

Possible definitions and implications:

1. FMA's are those martial arts that have been developed ever since the dawn of time only by cultures found within the geographical area that is now known as the Philippines. This would include all the homegrown arnis, kuntaw-silat of Sulu & Mindanao, local tribal martial arts like bultong, yaw-yan and combat aikido. This would exclude the arnis styles developed in foreign countries (like Inosanto-Lacoste), arnis styles developed by foreigners and martial arts developed in Sabah (although Sabah was the property of the Sultan of Sulu and therefore its martial arts can be considered as falling under Sulu martial arts, it is not part of the geographical area now known as the Philippines).

2. FMA's are those martial arts that have been developed only since the colonization of this archipelago by the Spaniards (since there was no such thing as Filipinos before the Spaniards colonized us) up to the present time by cultures found within the geographical area that is now known as the Philippines. This would include all the homegrown martial arts developed within the colonial era and later like LAMECO, Ywa-Yan and Combat Aikido. But, this would exclude all those martial arts that were developed here but pre-date the arrival of the Spanish (maybe kuntaw-silat of Sulu & Mindanao and local tribal martial arts like bultong?). And this would again exclude the arnis styles developed in foreign countries, arnis styles developed by foreigners and martial arts developed in Sabah.

3. FMA's are those martial arts that fall under the categories of arnis/escrima/kali and kuntaw/silat that have been developed ever since the dawn of time by cultures found within the geographical area that is now known as the Philippines as well as all styles of arnis/escrima/kali/kuntaw/silat that are derived from the above martial arts to any extent. This would include all homegrown and foreign developed (as long as they are derived from homegrown ones) arnis, kuntaw and silat. This would exclude combat aikido, yaw-yan (yaw-yan may be based on arnis but as far as I know it is not a style of arnis/kuntaw/silat) and martial arts developed in Sabah.

4. FMA's are those martial arts that fall under the categories of arnis/escrima/kali and kuntaw/silat that have been developed ever since the dawn of time by cultures found within the geographical area that is now known as the Philippines as well as all styles of arnis/escrima/kali/kuntaw/silat that are derived from the above martial arts to any extent but do not have any elements of foreign martial arts integrated into it. Now you can just imagine what this definition would imply. I would think a number of systems would not be considered FMA if this were the definition.

5. FMA's are those martial arts that have been developed within the geographical area that is now known as the Philippines by self-professed Filipinos. This implies that if one (the founder of a martial art) doesn't consider himself a Filipino, even if the Philippines claims him (and his martial art) as being Filipino, he and his martial art cannot be considered Filipino from his perspective. Now, what should be done with a guy (and his martial art) that has this perspective? Do we still claim his martial art as Filipino regardless of his opinion?

[Raul]

This thread just transformed from an ugly duckling into a beautiful swan!

[jerry]

We have the same problem in the States regarding "tribal affiliation". Some Indians want people to believe that, just because an Indian made something, regardless of whether it is traditional within their tribe or not (it could be completely contemporary with influences from outside sources), that this "art" is truly Indian. On the other hand, some Indian art is purely traditional. And then there is everything in between. So what they have done is designate any art made by a certifiable "Indian" as Indian art, and any "Indian art" replica, e.g. made by non-Indians, must be designated as non-Indian. Personally, it seems to me they went to far in the other direction, as some of the truly Indian stuff has no resemblance to traditional Indian art, whereas some of the 'non-Indian' stuff is much more typy than a lot of Indian art, even though the people who created it are no part Indian. But I can understand the need to designate Indian art made by actual Indians as such, since so many non-Indians want to cash in on the "Indian look". People need to know if they are getting something from an actual Indian, or a Chinese out of Hong Kong.

[Sitbatan]

Lord have mercy.... FMA is Arnis .... no need to get it twisted.

Ever since I put up the Arnis school here in Dagupan... all these kickboxers, boxers, Aikido, tae kwon do, kung fu, and karate guys are all claiming Filipino Martial Arts because guess what? They are all Filipino, but talk Sh^T about Arnis like it's for Tanods and homeless farmers.

So stop jumping on the band wagon and stop bastardising the only thing we got that's Pinoy ....Arnis!!

[torqui]

Lord have mercy.... FMA is Arnis .... no need to get it twisted....

So stop jumping on the band wagon and stop bastardising the only thing we got that's Pinoy ....Arnis!!

I see. I totally forgot about this possible definition. so FMA is Arnis? This would imply that other things like Bultong (like Daniel Foronda's), Kuntaw & Silat (practiced in Mindanao/Sulu), Dumog (the purely empty hand grappling systems practiced by some tribes), Yaw-Yan, Mongoose, Tracma and Pangamut (like Tanny Campo's) are not FMA since they are not considered Arnis. I'm not familiar with Sarian but if it's not an arnis style then, I guess, by the above definition, it isn't FMA either. Did I get it correctly?

[Sitbatan]

to put it bluntly....yes! They are Filipino but could care less about Arnis like Combat Aikido too. They are all empty hand systems that put their Martial Art first..... Arnis last.

Let's take a look:

Maharlika Kuntaw = looks like karate, master wears a hakama?
Bultong = is a native art of wrestling, long before Jose Rizal(do they consider it a martial art?? Most likely no, it's cultural)
Silat = is a Malay art (most real silat practioners in Philippines trace their roots to Malayan race, not King Felipe's subjects)
Yaw-yan = basically kick boxing, they practice arnis too as secondary to kick boxing
Tracma = kickboxing...I know I have several friends here who are in the club... they do Arnis katas based on Karate.
Mongoose = boxing / empty hand combat with special rings made of steel
Dumog and Pangamut = made by Danny Inosanto
Sarian = all around self-defense
Combat Aikido = Japs taught Pinoys, Pinoys taught pinoys.

Yes they are Filipino but none of these are Arnis based.... except maybe yaw-yan that's what i read.

Arnis is what put FMA on the MAP!!!

Arnis is what gives FMA it's identity among other Martial Arts.... otherwise we would just be another *do or *itsu...

[Lulod]

I cleared things about Yaw-Yan in this old thread:

http://www.fmaforum.org/index.php?showtopi...1243&#entry1243

Nov 16 2005, 11:03 PM

The MT stance has the rear heel flat on the floor, around 45 to 90 degrees with respect to the lead foot. More weight is on the rear foot. The lead foot slithers as a constant threat to deliver a teep kick (front thrust heel kick). That's their equivalent of the jab. MT's forward stepping motion resembles the Wai Khru dance, a rhythmic lead knee raise with forward stepping motions. Note that I'm talking about the native Thailand MT fighting style and not the MT of America or Europe.

YY's "handang panlaban" is very similar to the old-school boxing stance or the panantukan stance as Dan Inosanto teaches it. Body and limbs relaxed with both knees slightly bent, weight distributed evenly on both feet held slightly wider than shoulder width apart. Lead shoulder raised, chin tucked down, lead foot flat & pointed slightly inwards. The shoulders & body are a bit squared, unlike the sport boxing stance that's a bit of a side stance so as to present a smalller body target. Elbows tightly held near the ribcage, rear heel raised, hands raised above chin level. Footwork is like that of Western Boxing - shuffle steps, also similar to JKD Kickboxing. Of course, MT has infused many Western Boxing principles as well and that started in the 60's. However, the current modern MT boxing style is KO focused - each punch is delivered with a KO intention. WB is said to be more point combination oriented (according the Thailand's living legend Ajarn Apidej).

The MT stance has the hands and elbows held farther from the body, and and also much higher, hands at the eyebrow level. YY elbows while in the fighting stance are held tight, close to the body. MT's elbows are held at a 45 degree angle away from the ribs.

YY has "Bolo Punches" which are a series of hammer fist punches derived from stick or bolo strike angles. The contact point is the edge of the hand in a hammerfist and/or the blade of the forearm. Most of them are hacks. In archaic European/American boxing, these various hacks were known as the Battling Nelson, Louisville Slugger, Axe fist, Hammer fist, etc. These hacks, along with some basic trapping and tricks, constitute YY's version of what is generally known as "dirty boxing".

Of course, both YY and MT have the usual boxing punches: jab, straight rear, hook, uppercut, overhand. That, and elbow strikes.

In MT training, some strikes are chambered. There is a counter-torque preparation before a punch or kick. Some Thai fighters do that, some don't. There's also the lead switch before a kick or knee. YY style prefers little to no telegraphic preparation.

In YY, while kicking, both hands are kept high and extended forward to protect the head, keeping the elbows in to protect the body. There are prescribed hand positions for every kick. Hands are not allowed to flail away in counter-torque. Hard to do when tired with heavy gloves pulling the hands down. Instructors put special attention on teaching where to put the guard hand/s while punching, elbowing, kneeing and kicking.

YY doesn't advocate the use of force-to-force blocks, but obviously, situations do arise when hard blocks or covers need to be applied. YY defense uses parries and deflections, guiding the strike rather than slapping it away or meeting it head on. Some parries lead to a trap. "buno" is also taught.

Many YY fighters fought in Thailand under Muay Thai rules and performed well. One of the instuctors at Yaw-Yan Pasay, Badong Valdueza, is the local 2004 Muay Thai Champion. Roldan Cartajena, one of the professional fighters at YY Pasay, is a 3-time URCC Champion.

I studied in the Yaw-Yan Temples under first generation masters. Some guys who took up YY trained in YY clubs that have a more relaxed approach in teaching form and have a generic kickboxing curriculum, and thus, may have a different assessment of how different MT is from YY.

[torqui]

to put it bluntly....yes!  They are Filipino but could care less about Arnis like Combat Aikido too.  They are all empty hand systems that put their Martial Art first..... Arnis last.

Let's take a look:

Maharlika Kuntaw = looks like karate, master wears a hakama?
Bultong = is a native art of wrestling, long before Jose Rizal(do they consider it a martial art??  Most likely no, it's cultural)
Silat = is a Malay art (most real silat practioners in Philippines trace their roots to Malayan race, not King Felipe's subjects)
Yaw-yan = basically kick boxing, they practice arnis too as secondary to kick boxing
Tracma = kickboxing...I know I have several friends here who are in the club... they do Arnis katas based on Karate.
Mongoose = boxing / empty hand combat with special rings made of steel
Dumog and Pangamut = made by Danny Inosanto
Sarian = all around self-defense
Combat Aikido = Japs taught Pinoys, Pinoys taught pinoys.

Yes they are Filipino but none of these are Arnis based.... except maybe yaw-yan that's what i read.

Arnis is what put FMA on the MAP!!!

Arnis is what gives FMA it's identity among other Martial Arts.... otherwise we would just be another *do or *itsu...

Hmm... I don't think the pangamut of Tanny Campo was created by Danny Inosanto (have they ever met?). I believe Tanny Campo is from Cebu (and still lives there).

Anyway, let me get this straight. You wouldn't consider Maharlika Kuntaw, Bultong, Silat (Kuntaw-Silat), Yaw-Yan, Tracma, Mongoose, Dumog, Pangamut, Sarian and Combat Aikido to be Filipino Martial Arts? Right?

[Sitbatan]

Aikido = no....
Combat Aikido....no, I should know I'm a 3rd dan
silat = no (some Pinoy moros / muslims practice/ teach it... i do)
Maharlika kuntaw = yes made in PI, but basically karateish
tracma / mongoose = Iglesia ni Cristo karate clubs (FMA? i don't know, ok maybe)..most of my INC buddys say it's kick boxing.
yaw-yan = yes
dumog / pangamut = ok sure.... ask any of the manongs here and they'll look at you funny like what the hell art is that they know wrestling and boxing... made in the USA
Sarian = ok sure, made in PI
Bultong = native art of wrestling...more cultural than FMA, but yes made in PI


Basically FMA is ARNIS...sticks and blades..some empty hands. no disrespect to any other arts but without Arnis, FMA wouldn't be where it is now....period. Besides this is an FMA forum.... does anybody believe FMA is otherwise??

[Sinyalan]

Basically FMA is ARNIS. no disrespect to any other arts but without Arnis, FMA wouldn't be where it is now....period. Besides this is an FMA forum.... does anybody believe FMA is otherwise??

FMA isn't that just arnis... if you segregate a particular portion of the place then you can say it's arnis but what about the other parts of PI? They don't call FMA arnis... some call it ESKRIMA or OLISI. Altrhough they have the same structure... and majority of these systems use sticks. That must be the reason why people call it ARNIS. Hey, I prefer to call it OLISI in my old days.

[malapitan]

IMHO, There are no hard and fast rule to what is BS FMA or not.

It's like defining what's obscene. you can't specifically define what if is, but you sure know it when you see it

[bahad_zu'bu]

....i have to agree with sinyalan......some would argue that the "FMA" that we see now was developed in or around the VISAYAS region, particularly CEBU.....it wasnt called "arnis" there.........

[Sitbatan]

Are you saying Luzon people learned Arnis from the Visayans??

I learned some from Master Garciano who is Cebuano, he calls it Garrote and Machete...and some other Visayans; but i also learned from Pangasinan, Pampangan, Ilocano, Tagalog, and other Luzon peoples and we call it Arnis!!

What I was talking about is FMA is Arnis, Eskrima, Garrote, Olisi, Pananandata.... "Stick and Blades...some empty hand"

[jerry]

So do the American Filipinos, especially kali teachers, count as FMA? Or can they be Filipino-American, but non-FMA?

[Sitbatan]

So do the American Filipinos, especially kali teachers, count as FMA?  Or can they be Filipino-American, but non-FMA?

Anybody can teach FMA, but it's up to the instructor if he wants to acknowledge the true lineage of his techniques.... or just take a little kick, grapple here. borrow a little twist, palm there, and mix it up to wala!...instant FMA Adobo.

It's really an insult when you see a TKD kick in a TKD uniform say it's FMA just because the guy is Pinoy.... or how about full Gi with Hakama saying it's FMA??

O well, it's up to us to smell the bullshido and properly flush it with knowledge.

Peace Jerry...BTW i like all the "Indian Threads" you post. I lived in Oklahoma for a while and the Comanches were cool people. What tribe are you from?

[dyak_stone]

Well, I do see Killat Serrada's point. Up to a time, I thought that FMA was a term used only to refer to arnis, eskrima, kali (<--I know, I know, but let's not get into that now), garrote, olisi, and so on- basically all the stickfighting/bladefighting styles and systems that trace their roots to the Philippines.

This is not to discount sikaran, buno't dumog, boltong, at iba pa as being other martial arts of Pinoy origin, because to me, it is obvious that they are. I just thought that the term FMA was specifically coined to counter the confusion regarding the many terms (arnis, eskrima, olisi, etc.) that refer to the more or less similar Filipino stick/blade fighting arts. Different styles and systems, but basically the similar paradigm of weapos first, largo media corto, trapping, flow, striking angles, and so on.

Now, if FMA apparently has the bigger definition- all martial arts/combat arts/combat sports/you-get-what-I-mean originating from the Philippines, then maybe we need a different term to encompass just our various arnis, eskrima, kali, olisi, garrote, etc. styles. Filipino weapon fighting?

---

On another note: is sikaran a generic Filipino term for kicking? I have been under the impression that sikaran specifically refers only to the kicking sport that originated from Baras, Rizal (and I do say sport because I think the farmers who practice this do so just to pass the time and test their mettle, and not to prepare for war or anything like that). But now, I've been hearing that sikaran is a subset within the art of kali, consisting of low line kicking?

I mean, to me its alright to include kicking in your schools curriculum. I just draw the line at taking terms such as sikaran out of context. What's next, teach a few flowery disarms and then call it the eskrima subsystem of boltong?

[soulguru]

this is such a lively thread...

[duende2005]

Basically FMA is ARNIS...sticks and blades..some empty hands.  no disrespect to any other arts but without Arnis, FMA wouldn't be where it is now....period.  Besides this is an FMA forum.... does anybody believe FMA is otherwise??

yes. when you say FMA, it primarily refers to stick and blade fighting.

if ever FMA does have any empty-hand art, then it's probably still evolving.

as for empty-hand applications of stick-and-blade-based techniques, i have yet to see them in actual use--in a tournament, i mean. Wouldn't it be great to see FMA emptyhands at the UFC?

of course, i've seen PTK emptyhands in demos. i know they're being applied by some members of the military, maybe. but PTK is still primarily about sticks and blades.

as for Sikadsu, I have yet to see it in action--I mean in a tournament, not a demo.

I've also seen Sikaran in a demo--but it looks like TKD to me. Not to insult Sikaran practitioners, but that's just how it looked to me. I admit I am ignorant on this matter.

now did FMA originate in Luzon or the Visayas? I say both!

[soulguru]

hmmm... so does this mean that "Silat" isn't also indigenous to the Tausugs?! weird- coz for quite a very long time in history, Basilan (as well as other islands w/in that area) was UNDER Sulu's influence/control... ...as for people not seeing a "kali moro grandmaster", oh well, that's exactly the point- its Silat/Kuntaw they practice, not "Kali"...by the way, the people down there have ALWAYS been wary of outsiders eversince- they can smell if someone's (depends if u smell fishy...) different, untrustworthy, a Christian or Muslim... thus its but normal for them to choose whether to show what they know or hide stuff... its just like reknowned arnis/escrima Masters that "sizeup" a person, whether ok to teach/show stuff or not... oh well, sayang if others weren't so fortunate of seeing/learning stuff there. simple lang eh- di nila trip pakitaan, unlike Yuli R.; heard he learned some gr8 stuff there...

Bullshitdo? marami... di na tyo kelngan lumayo, ehehe...

How about the "Moslem-connection?"  We have some moslem members who grew up in the Sulu-Tawi-tawi-Basilan-Zamboanga area.  They say they've never seen any form of escrima there... only the Blade work of Silat.

CORRECT... there's a whale of a difference between silat kuntao and escrima/ arnis. Silat is indigenous to the Yakan tribes in Basilan. I've spent half of my life travelling from the fringes of BUDA (Bukidnon Davao Cotabato, from Siasi, Jolo, Lamitan, Basilan, Ipil, Margosatubig,Marawi, Siocon, Siraway, etc.) I have not seen a living breathing kali moro grandmaster!

[Banakun]

"Sikaran" comes from the word "sikad" which is a Visayan/Cebuano term which means "to kick." That is why tricycles here without motors are called "tri-sikad." What confuses me is how the term "sikad" gets to be transplanted to Luzon, particularly a very"Tagalog" area. I don't remember the term "sikad" as also being used in the tagalog language...

[Raul]

"Sikaran" comes from the word "sikad" which is a Visayan/Cebuano term which means "to kick."  That is why tricycles here without motors are called "tri-sikad."  What confuses me is how the term "sikad" gets to be transplanted to Luzon, particularly a very"Tagalog" area. I don't remember the term "sikad" as also being used in the tagalog language...

Sikad is a tagalog word... it means a kick using the ball or sole of the foot. The fluttering "kick' of a swimmer is also called sikad. If the contact points are the sides of the foot, the toes, or instep, then its called sipa. Stomping motions are called tadyak if it is used as a kick... or called padyak if it is used to pedal a bike or something. The sidecar drivers here are called padyak boys.